Ongoing Clearcoat Problem, Please look at pics!
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So this has been an ongoing problem ever since I started painting and it annoys the HELL out of me. I pretty much don’t know what these are coming from. They start showing up around the 2nd coat of clear. The 1st coat of clear goes on matte- so I cannot detect any of these little craters. The basecoat goes on perfect, absolutely perfect. I allow the basecoat to dry for 30 minutes before the clear. I tack off the basecoat and there is no trash sitting on the panel at all. These craters are not trash as the trash rises to the top and can be buffed out. These craters have a small dot in the middle of them and cannot be wetsanded out because in order to get to the bottom of the crater, I hit basecoat each time.
I use wax and grease remover and I also use comet and a couple other soaps with the same result. I am waiting the correct amount of time in between clear coat applications (10 minutes) so I can rule out solvent pop. I am just at a loss now because I know that I have the panel prepped correctly and these are not pinholes in the body work. They show up in the clear and they do not fill in with addition coats. I also do not believe they are from water because I have a whole water trap system setup with a 3 foot “snake” right before my gun.
I am using SPI Euro clear and LPH 400
Is it possible that I need to switch my wax and grease remover.
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[IMG]http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e25/nexson1/IMG_7141.jpg[/IMG]Well damn…
Does it show up during your application of clear, or does it show up afterwards?That’s a hard one, because it is so contained.
Looks like it could either be clear pop. or fish eyes.
One will occur during (Fish eyes) one will occur after (Solvent Pop)
Does seem a little big for Solvent pop.
I would say Because:
#1: you aren’t getting it in previous coats. (Fish eyes attacks thin base coats the hardest)
And because:
#2: it is so contained. (Not multiple spots all over in a small area on the surface. The chances of having a pre paint surface contamination the size of a pen head in only one single spot and nowhere else is pretty unrealistic.)My bet is you’re putting it onto the surface yourself.
Rather it be something air born in the shop. or some sort of Contamination coming from you, your air compressor, your air line, your gun, your heating source, virtually anything that it can be exposed to.My guess would be you’re over working your air compressor or dryer system and by your final coats it’s just had enough.
You have a small leak in your airhose/fittings by chance?
What is your heat source?
I’m not sure, you got me stumped Nexson.
The fact that it isn’t showing up in your basecoats, and that it is so contained leads me to believe you’re putting it on there during your final coats.it could be fisheye, possibly coming from oil in the compressor. but it could also be defective clear. but it looks more like fisheye so its either oil or water. the set up you have probably isnt doing the job correctly or your trap is to close to the compressor. try using the motor guard spray gun filters instead of the snake. i got a few filters from the compressor to the booth but i can always tell the difference if i forget to turn on the air drier. so yea an air drier definitely helps out a lot
the thing you need ta take notice of is that bump in the center of your crater thats your problem right there figure out where thats coming from an youll solve your problem 😉 thats contamination
[quote]the thing you need ta take notice of is that bump in the center of your crater thats your problem right there figure out where thats coming from an youll solve your problem thats contamination[/quote]
Yup. what he said.
Since your gun is new, it’s either airborne or something in your line.
Try adding a disposable inline air filter; those round plastic bubble
thingy. And, consider the air movement in your “booth” and all stuff
nearby; silicone detailing products, etc.And again, you can see the cause of the problem right there in the centre of the fish eye.
Firstly, don’t be tempted to use a fish eye additive – short term gain, long term pain 😉
Until you get to the root of the problem, there are a couple of hack tricks you can try if you’re only getting the odd one here and there. Get a pin and try to ‘burst’ that bubble at the centre of the fish eye whilst the clear is still wet. That may be enough for the clear to flow into the hollow.
If that doesn’t work, again while the clear it still wet, dab a little blob of clear into the fish eye with a fine brush. This should flow out and be almost invisible when the clear has dried. You may end up with a little lump, but that’ll sand out much more easily than a hollow.
Neither of the above are actual cures, or indeed recommended procedures, but just short term quick fixes until you get the contamination problem licked 🙂
I am just leaving the BASF training center, I wandered off and was talking to a few Chemist’s, they were intrigued by the site so when I showed them they had a look at this thread.
Basically said it’s some form of contamination causing it, they just advised you really chceck your spray environment…also said to try a proper BASF clear! LoL
They told me some stories about finding jobs being strangly contaminated by things from popcorn grease to having a photocopier to close to the booth. One of them also seemed to think it looked similar to a problem they experienced with a place where the bOoth wasn’t well sealed and bondo dust from outside the shop ended up contaminating the paint jobs.
have you tried shooting clear without the snake???ya might be getting somthing outta that??
[b]RatStang wrote:[/b]
[quote]Well damn…
Does it show up during your application of clear, or does it show up afterwards?That’s a hard one, because it is so contained.
Looks like it could either be clear pop. or fish eyes.
One will occur during (Fish eyes) one will occur after (Solvent Pop)
Does seem a little big for Solvent pop.
I would say Because:
#1: you aren’t getting it in previous coats. (Fish eyes attacks thin base coats the hardest)
And because:
#2: it is so contained. (Not multiple spots all over in a small area on the surface. The chances of having a pre paint surface contamination the size of a pen head in only one single spot and nowhere else is pretty unrealistic.)My bet is you’re putting it onto the surface yourself.
Rather it be something air born in the shop. or some sort of Contamination coming from you, your air compressor, your air line, your gun, your heating source, virtually anything that it can be exposed to.My guess would be you’re over working your air compressor or dryer system and by your final coats it’s just had enough.
You have a small leak in your airhose/fittings by chance?
What is your heat source?
I’m not sure, you got me stumped Nexson.
The fact that it isn’t showing up in your basecoats, and that it is so contained leads me to believe you’re putting it on there during your final coats.[/quote]Yea, so like your said, my issues do not show up in the basecoat at all. I have tried painting inside and outside with the same exact results. It was as if no matter where I painted it, I would have the same problems, which narrows it down to my air supply (which I doubt) or contamination, which I find hard to believe as well, but when it comes down to it, it is one or the other. I don’t have a heat source as I do the whole garage/outside painting bit. I don’t have any air leaks and everything sound. You guys really know how to think of every possible option that may cause the problem so I appreciate it!
[b]MoCoke wrote:[/b]
[quote]it could be fisheye, possibly coming from oil in the compressor. but it could also be defective clear. but it looks more like fisheye so its either oil or water. the set up you have probably isnt doing the job correctly or your trap is to close to the compressor. try using the motor guard spray gun filters instead of the snake. i got a few filters from the compressor to the booth but i can always tell the difference if i forget to turn on the air drier. so yea an air drier definitely helps out a lot[/quote]This problem has happened with about every clear I have used. it is hard to believe it is my airline because I have an air dryer, about 75 feet of hose and 3 FOOT “SANKE” right before the gun, however, I am going to be open to whatever may solve the problem. I have the air dryer 20 feet from the compresson and 20 feet of black iron piping on a downward angle back to the compressor inbetween.
[b]bondomerchant wrote:[/b]
[quote]the thing you need ta take notice of is that bump in the center of your crater thats your problem right there figure out where thats coming from an youll solve your problem 😉 thats contamination[/quote]Bondo, so this is the same problem I had that you helped me out with a while ago. As I have started to paint larger panels now, it seems to be coming back. But for sure, you are noticing the dot in the middle which is key to solving the problem.
[b]Andy T wrote:[/b]
[quote]And again, you can see the cause of the problem right there in the centre of the fish eye.Firstly, don’t be tempted to use a fish eye additive – short term gain, long term pain 😉
Until you get to the root of the problem, there are a couple of hack tricks you can try if you’re only getting the odd one here and there. Get a pin and try to ‘burst’ that bubble at the centre of the fish eye whilst the clear is still wet. That may be enough for the clear to flow into the hollow.
If that doesn’t work, again while the clear it still wet, dab a little blob of clear into the fish eye with a fine brush. This should flow out and be almost invisible when the clear has dried. You may end up with a little lump, but that’ll sand out much more easily than a hollow.
Neither of the above are actual cures, or indeed recommended procedures, but just short term quick fixes until you get the contamination problem licked :)[/quote]
These are good solutions to fxing the problem after the fact, hopefully I can get to the Root *(no pun intended) of the problem
[b]jimmo wrote:[/b]
[quote]I am just leaving the BASF training center, I wandered off and was talking to a few Chemist’s, they were intrigued by the site so when I showed them they had a look at this thread.Basically said it’s some form of contamination causing it, they just advised you really chceck your spray environment…also said to try a proper BASF clear! LoL
They told me some stories about finding jobs being strangly contaminated by things from popcorn grease to having a photocopier to close to the booth. One of them also seemed to think it looked similar to a problem they experienced with a place where the bOoth wasn’t well sealed and bondo dust from outside the shop ended up contaminating the paint jobs.[/quote]
WOw Jimmo, that is really cool that you did that for me. Me thinks it is contimination as well, but it just bewilders me how it does not show up in the base. Now, contamination will happen, that is fine, but my methods of removing contimation are not working, assuming it is)
[b]bondomerchant wrote:[/b]
[quote]have you tried shooting clear without the snake???ya might be getting somthing outta that??[/quote]Yes, because I actually forgot to use it! I am going to get rid of that thing as it is annoying. I am going to go back to the mini inline filter.
Base wont always show if you have contaminates on the surface..It is much more forgiving than clear is.. I am guessing its in your lines.. I would start with getting a good 3 stage drier and go from their.. Probably wouldnt hurt to put a cheaper filter setup right off the compressor.. Also throw out your flexible hose and get a new one. Have to start somewhere..
^check out my air system and let em know if it is sufficent. I just changed the hose yesterday, same thing. Wasting $ but no results lol
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xt0eR8ckF_M
you have an air drier and snake so that should cover water in the lines. but what kind of filters do you have for oil and other contaminants
^^check out my filter in the last picture, don’t mind the indicator, I still have to swap it out. I swapped out the inside with a fresh cartiage. Is that a sufficent trap? The compressor doesn’t run a whole lot and I draibn it and refill it before every job
In an effort to help solve the problem, I have added some more pictures. On the grill, you can see where the spots are sanded. These are the areas with the crators. I sanded with 320 to show the defect.
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[IMG]http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e25/nexson1/IMG_7154.jpg[/IMG]This problem has happened with about every clear I have used. it is hard to believe it is my airline because I have an air dryer, about 75 feet of hose and 3 FOOT “SANKE” right before the gun, however, I am going to be open to whatever may solve the problem. I have the air dryer 20 feet from the compresson and 20 feet of black iron piping on a downward angle back to the compressor inbetween.
okay now i think i found your problem. the 75 feet of hose you have is a little too long. by the time the air reaches the gun its going to cool down and condensate further in the hose. and another question is what brand clear are you using? have you used other brands and still get the same problem? because once i had a rep sample me some Transtar and it turned out pretty good. so when i ordered a gallon it gave me these little bubble looking things. i brought the rep back in and he turned the can upside down and told me it was from old stock. he replaced it and the problem was solved. if you absolutely think the problem isn’t coming from your air setup, then try a different clear brand.
I have an extra 25 feet of hose I am going to take out. It is behind the shutters. i always thought the longer the hose, the better, because it cools, but I will take out the 25 feet.
I have used PPG DC 3000 and now using SPI euro clear and same deal.
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