PPG Envirobase vs. Dupont Chromax
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Well Jayson…. I’m not going to get into a pissing match about this… Just stating facts from my own personal experience, just as the thread asks…. Take it as you may
Has axalta come up with a solution for de nibbing the base and re coating? I had heard if you get any trash in the base it is damn near impossible to recoat and not have it look like crap
I think they still recommend dumping in blender and dusting it out, on high metallic colors it tends to go on mottly. If you don’t get it on the first application its usually an uphill battle.
I spray standoblue 1.5 coats and then prefer a 10 or 15 miniute bake cycle, I feel the bake cycle is a key in any water borne system it simply makes sure all the water is out. I have been spraying it for over 7 years de nibing is hard but can be done. Your best bet is to avoid getting big junk in the basecoat which isint a problem to me at all, I cant remember the last time I had to de nib basecoat. I would bet that there isint many painters out there that would chose 3.5 low voc solvent over waterborne it just isint as good of a product, Axata has a great water product and there are a lot of painters out ther who relise this and are taking advantage of it.
Depending on the temp you bake at dont you think you are shortening your recoat window and possible delam?Water dries from the bottom out so I don’t understand how it can dry so fast but the bottom is still not dry when you pile on so much material all at once? I have been spraying waterborne for 5+ years after 22 years of solvent and have never relied upon a bake cycle to “help “get the water out,blowers are sufficient.
Hi Jayson, I dont beilieve that there actualy is a recoat time from base to clear assuming the basecoat is free from contamination. Most basecoats that have a window on them from basecoat to clearcoat are just for playing it safe from contamination. I cant see a bake cycle hurting the cross link of the basecoat to the clearcoat, and I have never seen clearcoat peel from standohde or standoblue basecoat. Trust me when I tell you that after a 15 miniute bake cycle the basecoat is dry and free of water.(Mabeye on a real humid day with a slow controler I have baked longer but day in day out a 15 miniute bake dryes Axalta basecoat beter and more consistint than blowers. The bake cycle even seems to make the basecoat harder and tack better IMO. P.S. I bake at 140
You could be right with your products Jim but I think it is more for delamination not contamination,and unless your are using a hardener in your basecoat I don’t think there is much of a cross link to the clear.I have seen lots of cromax delams in my area,just saying.
Not trying to be a smart ass or anything, but this is what I gather about axalta from the people that like it:
1. It’s expensive
2. Not user friendly
3. Takes a long time to learn the system
4. Find color variants can be challenging
5. Base coat repair are difficult
6. needs at least a 15 minute bake to dry the stuffSo other than basecoat application time can someone explain the upside of using this product. Also speaking of time savings, what about total time from sealer to clear? how does this product perform. I’ve demoed PPG and Sikkens water and a 3-5 minute flash between coats is all it takes, so really hogging on 1.5 coats and having to bake the stuff doesnt seem like a large time savings but it does sound like it’ll cost more having to run 2 bake cycles for each job. How does the base perform when you encounter those colors that takes more than the 1.5 coats to cover? How about tricoats?
What about cool down time after bake? Surely after the 15 minutes you aren’t going in there and clearing while the panels are still 100+? Or is that figured into the 15 minute bake cycle??
With my old ass downdraft temps are still in 110 range after the bake cycle shuts off.
From the outside looking in (because I don’t use water), I don’t see the benefit of Cromax over say Akzo or PPG from what has been explained in this thread. :teach
IMO I think Dupont sold out for a good reason….
Tati coats suck so much worse now. The sway they want us to do it is put your wet bed then do 10 percent base to wet bed spray it then do a 30 percent then a 50 percent in wet bed then do full strength then bake for 10 min then do pearl same way then bake again then clear so for a fender,door,door and quarter your looking almost 2 hr in the booth just for base
I am not saying there is a huge advantage with the Axalta line of waterborne, but it surely holds its own. My favorite thing about it is the back to back, once you get used to this you will not want to dry off coats. I use Standox not only for there basecoat but for there primers and clearcoats as well. As far as the delams go, We all know thats the painters fault not the paints fault, They will all delam if not used right. Around here there is a huge Sikkens shop that had a big bumper delam problem, but I aint blaming sikkens. I can honestly say I like the direction Axalta went with there waterborne there technology is totally diferent than any other water and if they can keep improving on it all the better.
Painterman, I wish I was in your area.. I would love to come hang with ya for a bit, just to show you some of the ways we do things around here, just sounds like were on totallly different pages…
I’m not joking when I say I have guys tell me they have never done tricoats as fast as we teach them..
And yes, the facts listed above are fairly true, the basecoat sands well for rerepair, but I usally over reduce my color 1 to 1 with blender when I have to get back into it or fix any blotching, then I use medium wet drop coats… I usally dont bake to dry the base, I just turn the heat up to 110 or 120 just to dry the humidity out of the panel and the booth, when I go back in after 5 to 10 minutes I dry any wet areas with a hand dryer…like I said above, painters with single stage experience adapt very quickly to this system, but I realize a lot of you younger guys may have never shot a centari job??Your system sounds pretty slow to me and very counter productive,you waste more time drying it IMO.Im old and have sprayed plenty of centari and still shoot single stage 😉
My jobber is a problem but the water is the biggest but I’ve MADE it work for me but a lot of painters around my area r the same but I’ve heard of people liking it but not here in the south mainly farther north paint stick u sound like a sales rep not a painter
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