15 Minute “Air Bake” Clear
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As you may or may not know, I work for Sherwin-Williams Automotive. I am looking for some honest feedback on a new product.
The company recently introduced a new clear that you can sand and buff after a 15 minute air dry (no heat – no UV lamps… just air dry).
My first thought upon reading the advertising and promotional sheets was to wonder if the whole process actually worked as advertised, in the time frame claimed (40 minutes for primer, basecoat and clear – with no heat).
So, I asked our training center to run me through the whole thing, start to finish, with a stopwatch.
The claim is accurate, with a bit of a side note. Although you can buff and sand the clear in 15 minutes (at 70°-75°F), it’s still soft to the touch (you can fingerprint it) – I have no idea how that works, but, it does. You’d have to give it about 45 minutes or so to, for example, hang a fender.
So, I’m trying to think how this works out for the shop. I can see some savings on not having to heat up the booth. I can see the possibility of allowing a second painter to shoot in a prep station while another painter shoots in the booth. …
My questions to the shop owners, managers & techs here are;
Do you see a use, need and/or value for something like this?
How/when might you use this?
sounds great 15 min … but I can’t wait for the stuff that is -15 min :woohoo: dries before you spray it. :laugh: buff it while it’s still in the gun :silly: :woohoo: :silly:
but now seriously , I am unfamiliar with the product , but interested in hearing more.
If its strictly buff time increasing, I would probably use it on the car that needed to go yesterday. I can see this very beneficial to non-baking shop, with the clears I use in a high bake environment we are ready to polish 15-20 minutes + cooldown.
We also have infrared lamps that will bring that speed down to 7-8 minutes + cooldown on small jobs.
It sounds like a nice idea, but I would need a bit more information on it. For instance, if you polish it right away (15 min) would you be putting you panel at risk? Is it harder to polish? How friendly is this clear to spray, law down nice? small or large jobs, or both? Does this feature trade off with anything else…less gloss, durability…etc
Stone – You’re not too far off. As it currently stands, you have to paint a panel at a time. It’s not ready for a complete or large jobs yet (but that’s in the near future)
Jimmo – the most honest answer I can give you to some of your questions, particularly longer term questions such as loss of gloss, durability, etc. right now is; I don’t know. HPC15 is very new and I just saw it in use for the first time yesterday. I mean, I know what the *claims* are, but I want to explore those questions with my tech reps and training center people (who have likely had a chance to play with this product for the past 6 months or so).
As for the immediate questions –
No, there is no risk in sanding & polishing in 15 minutes. That’s what it’s supposed to do, and it actually does it. I’m trying to understand how that’s possible if it’s still soft enough to fingerprint, and my best guess right now is PSI. You have a lot of PSI under your fingertip, but with the DA and the buffer, you’re not pushing into it as hard, and they are spreading whatever pressure over a larger area.
Is it harder to polish? Not at all. It sands and polishes great.
How does it spray and lay down? Very nice. Easy to spray (as I feel all our products are). In the demo yesterday, it laid out with no easily perceptible orange peel. He sanded & buffed a portion of the fender, and you could barely tell the difference between the polished and the non-polished areas.
Large or small jobs? Right now, it’s limited to panel painting, but, as I understand, that will be changing in the near future.
I’m wondering what it costs to run a typical booth on a per minute basis, as I see that as being the main advantage right now. The other advantage pointed out to me yesterday was that you only need 1.4 mils on this clear (our other clear, were looking for 2.0). I’m not sure what that translates to, other than perhaps a cost savings on using less clear (but it’s seems you’d need to use quite a bit of clear for .06 mils to make much difference).
As far as getting things done quickly, we have products and a speed process (ESP – Extreme Speed Process)that will get you done about as quickly as it’s likely to get. Our P30 primer with SR15 reducer can be sanded in 15 minutes. As for clear, it sounds like you’re using something similar to our CC931, which can be sanded, buffed and delivered after 7 minutes at 140° + cooldown.
So… since it kind of got buried in there, let me aks this again (if anyone here knows)… do you have any idea what it costs you to run your booth on a per minute (or even per hour) basis? Basically, we’re looking at gas costs (although, I suppose one could also add in filters, wear and tear on the booth, etc.)
I’ll get some numbers for you on monday, but keep us posted on any new info you come across. This is a product of interest.
i see I still haven’t got any numbers, i will one day. Anynhow nighthawk, I just got some of this in and am going to give it a shot. Just wondering if you’ve gotten any feedback or advice you can pass on for me.
p.s – I am impressed with it already, its less $$$ then any clear I currently stock!
I haven’t sprayed it myself yet, our other painter just finished painting a pt cruiser bumper, see the gallery under jimmo jobs. It turned out excellent and the clear had a great flow to it. So far I am very impressed with it. It saved me having to bake it, its pretty well dust free in 10 minutes. The polishing in 15 isn’t the most appealing part for me, but to be able to spray and pull it out in 10 minutes compared to my current 30-40 after bake and cool-down, thats huge!!
As a hard-core BASF user, I’ll be the first to say Sherwin Williams has a huge edge here. I’ll post my findings on larger jobs in a while, check the product reviews section.
[b]jimmo wrote:[/b]
[quote]i see I still haven’t got any numbers, i will one day. Anynhow nighthawk, I just got some of this in and am going to give it a shot. Just wondering if you’ve gotten any feedback or advice you can pass on for me.
[/quote]As far as direct feedback, I have one local guy who does a lot of custom bikes. He also does some collision work to keep the money rolling in. He bought a quart to try on a couple of bikes, loved it, came back, bought a gallon – says he loves it. He doesn’t have a booth. He likes that he can spray it on, walk away and go start on the next project without having to worry about it.
[quote]
p.s – I am impressed with it already, its less $$$ then any clear I currently stock![/quote]I almost hate to say this, but, Wow! THe list price on this stuff is right up there with our other top clears. This stuff is *not* inexpensive. How much are you usually paying for clear??
i don’t have all the #’s in front of me, a gallon of any 5000 series RM clears or even glasurit clears typically start at $200/gal, average around $250.(CND)
Say an average RM Clear, DC5100. It costs me $213.04 /gallon + $84.04/quart of hardener. Mixed at 3:1 would give me a ready-for-use price of $243.82 / gallon.
calculated – [u](3 x 213.04)+336.16[/u] (hardener gallon price)
************** 4 (total parts)
**************= 243.82This is usually how I try to cost out my clears, factoring hardener, reducer price..etc.
I hadn’t done that with the S&W stuff yet, it was about $145 for the clear, 30-40 around for hardener & reducer.
wow my jobber IS screwing me hard my ass still hurts:blink: :blink:
i might give the stuff a shot;)
Just about any PPG clear costs me about $200.00gl and a quart of hardener is about $100.00. How does the S-W clear work in a booth. My booth moves a ton of air and I have trouble using any kind of quick clear
Jimmo… sprayable cost is the *only* way to accurately compare paint lines. You’re right on the money. I don’t have the pricing here (other than list price on the web site – which is $22.10 per gallon) I have to think your SW supplier gave you a *serious* discount on that clear.
You are talking about a gallon of HPC15 clear and a quart of UH80 hardener, right? Didn’t you also get some US3 or US4 reducer (5:1:1 mix ratio).
[b]bondomerchant wrote:[/b]
[quote]wow my jobber IS screwing me hard my ass still hurts:blink: :blink:[/quote]I don’t think so Bondo… I think Jimmo’s SW supplier gave him the deal of the century.
[b]ding wrote:[/b]
[quote]Just about any PPG clear costs me about $200.00gl and a quart of hardener is about $100.00. How does the S-W clear work in a booth. My booth moves a ton of air and I have trouble using any kind of quick clear[/quote]The top line SW clears run in the area of $200 (Just over $200 list price). Shops get a shop price which probably puts them in the $180 range. The UH80 hardener used in the HPC15 clear list for $115 per quart. The UH904 hardener used in CC931 & CC950 list for $81.
HPC15 is not at all designed to be baked – there is no recommendation.
If the air flow in your booth makes it tough for you to work with quick clears…you can tweak CC931 or CC950 with your reducer choice. CC931 is quick, designed for panel or spot repairs. The CC950 is designed for doing completes.
Your booth being the way it is, what *I* would do would be to bring a small amount of each clear over and spray some test panels or something to see how it worked in you particualr situation. I’d probably start with CC931, US5 reducer as my first guess at a combo that would work well for you.
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