paul
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i DA back with P400 never had an issue and it cuts back any orange peel better than the finer grades ,for difficult areas i use an ocsilating sander not a rotory duel action ,a Fein multitop to be exact with a 3″ Velcro smart repair DA pad fitted ,for edges i use a soft interface,the Fein gives far more control and is ideal for localised denibs ,it will also sand under door latches etc where a DA cant get to ,i also use compound heads on it for those areas
as for wetsanding then P600 is ideal for clear and other 2K solid finishes
Paul
i like fantastik however i have experianced differences in consistancy from batch to batch,sometimes it can be a little on the sloppy side ,one product i realy do like is Upol Flyweight ,currently i can buy it at £12.50 a tin compared to £23 for fantastic ,it is almost as smooth as fantastic but has a slightly rougher grain to it ,doesnt pin hole much at all and sands back nice and easy ,it is one of the only budget fillers i have tried that realy works well ,much much better than Upol so called easysand ,its sort of easysand but with the superior atributes of fantastic and is great middle ground filler
as i do a lot of bikes and scooters lambretta vespa i require a filler that makes my job easier and Flyweight fits the bill allround ,as a bonus it is also very reasonably priced although price is not the deciding factor for me its nice to get a good product at a good price
Paul
i have to say i tend to be in agreament regarding paint reps ,they have a list of excuses longer than the tech sheets all ready to hand out
however before we tar everyone with the same brush i would be very interested in the final outcome of this little saga as the info could be very usefull
Paul
[quote=”Xchaser” post=28929][quote=”ARTSPRAY” post=28926]oh and one Sata model you dont hear much about is the 1000b RP which is thier budget version ,very similar in shape to the 4000b ,by all acounts it sprays a little too well and i have heard it compars favourably with the 3000b ,it is one model i would like to try for myself[/quote]
I must say Paul your right about the Sata jet 1000 RP I actually got one from your neck of the woods about 3 months ago it has a 1.3 setup and I only use it for clear at the moment. The only negative thing i could say about it has a narrower fan compared to the higher end sata’s but it sure puts on a real nice coat a clear! When my 3000 RP arrives I might give the 1000 a go for base. By the way Paul I always appreciated your knowledge and info you shared on the KKL. You disappeared there for a while so I’m wrapt that your on this awesome forum! :cheers[/quote]
yeh things started go a little skew over on KKL and it was detracting from my true intent which was to gain and also share usefull information and experianceno point to all the BS mate and sadly too many of those type of forums are simply biased towards certain brands ,personaly i dont care too much who made what and where as long as it doese the job but when you have people who are obvously toeing the company line to the exclusion of all reason then im out ,combine that with a little industrial sabotage and it gets to be very nasty behind the scenes 😉
Paul
oh and one Sata model you dont hear much about is the 1000b RP which is thier budget version ,very similar in shape to the 4000b ,by all acounts it sprays a little too well and i have heard it compars favourably with the 3000b ,it is one model i would like to try for myself
[quote=”Xchaser” post=28917][quote=”ARTSPRAY” post=28904]my old Walcom was a 1.2 FX HA, this has been superceded by the latter more easily serviced Genesi HTI or HTE or whatever they call thier compliant/RP versions lol
so basicly if its an all rounder and clearing gun then whatever you decide brand wise i would recomend the RP AKA compliant versions over the HVLP ,also i much prefer RP for waterbournes
Oh and check out both the Iwata WBX gold aircap as used by Aston Martin for clear and the new Ballaria which has a flatter more even pattern ,much more economicaly priced than Sata and imho better built ,i will be getting myself a Supernova soon WS version off a friend ,i have seen the results he gets from it and have used it for a small job myself so hopefully it will be a good gun for me ,they do however require a bit of user input to tune them in for faster aplication techniques,myself i like to work at a slower pace anyway ,finish being more important than speed for me which is why my Sata RP and my Walcom where both 1.2 set ups ,one it slowed them down to my pace and two i felt the finish was superior to the larger tip sizes[/quote]
Hey Artspray are the Aston martins painted manually, how do you know that they use the iwata wbx? I was looking into getting the new bellaria but couldn’t get any feedback on it so I opted to get a new 3000 RP. Do you have any experience with either of those iwata’s[/quote]
the special comisions are hand painted the rest are done by machine i know becouse one my friend Damian Smyth works there as a sprayer and two i also know the Iwata Rep Phil ,the sprayers get to choose thier own clear guns and the preference is for the WBX gold cap the base however must be aplied with a Devilbiss GTI Pro and no i havent used either gun myself however the Anest Iwata main rep is a friend of mine and also MIck Neill at the custompaintstudio who is a dealer for Anest so i get a bit of tech info from those
oh and my personal base gun is a Walcom Geo HVLP ,uses only 7.5 CFM and lays silvers like a dream come true
my old Walcom was a 1.2 FX HA, this has been superceded by the latter more easily serviced Genesi HTI or HTE or whatever they call thier compliant/RP versions lol
so basicly if its an all rounder and clearing gun then whatever you decide brand wise i would recomend the RP AKA compliant versions over the HVLP ,also i much prefer RP for waterbournes
Oh and check out both the Iwata WBX gold aircap as used by Aston Martin for clear and the new Ballaria which has a flatter more even pattern ,much more economicaly priced than Sata and imho better built ,i will be getting myself a Supernova soon WS version off a friend ,i have seen the results he gets from it and have used it for a small job myself so hopefully it will be a good gun for me ,they do however require a bit of user input to tune them in for faster aplication techniques,myself i like to work at a slower pace anyway ,finish being more important than speed for me which is why my Sata RP and my Walcom where both 1.2 set ups ,one it slowed them down to my pace and two i felt the finish was superior to the larger tip sizes
as general rule of thumb i have found the slower the cure the higher the gloss retention also in my experiance after bakeing the panel normaly requires a period of cold to harden up ,left in a warm still envoiroment clear often stays soft ,also i like to get vehicles out the oven and not left inside them overnight ,preferably outside in the open air and let the cool night air do its job
Basecoats and primers tend to act like blotting paper and soak uo the gloss ,when it comes to custom work i often double laker the job ,the first coat of clear acts like a sealer and the second will have superior gloss retention ,however this is not realy practical for the avergae bodyshop repair
most clears actualy have a full cure period of some 90 days
Paul
back in the day that was exactly how to do the job lol everything was rotten it was the days of British Leyland and Alpha Romeo ,now all we have is Mercedes when it comes to rust buckets lol
as far as i am concerned its horses for courses ,if the customers wants fudge then let em have it ,if they want to spend out on a new panel then great but economics do dictate a lot of what we do
what i wont do however is knock myself out to save the customer money as often the correct repair is usualy the more economical anyway ,when a customer wants to salvage a rusty or heavily damaged panel often this can take longer to repair than to change it so i charge accordingly and in many cases the job doesnt work out any cheaper for them plus they are left with a car full of filler and fibreglass
so realy speaking how not to repair a car is relative to the job in hand ,some discerning customers with cash to spend on an old classic may require the vehicle to be restored without the use of filler even to the point of haveing panels hand made by expert panel beaters ,most traders would have rust fudged up with no concerns whatsover for the longevity of the job as long as it got it off the forecourt
Paul
not that i bother much with Sata guns anymore but from what i gather the 4000 RP hasnt been recieved that well and most folk i talk to prefer the older 3000 RP model ,even my rep admited as much after being pushed but he has to sell what he has to sell 😉
as for RP guns useing more paint than HVLP it actualy depends on the paint as the reverse can be true ,higher viscosity material ie clearcoat requires more velocity to get it to the panel ,RP guns provide the added momentum to enable this , with a HVLP heavier less atomised materials can drop out of flight and not actualy transfer to the panel ,with lighter materials HVLP wins as there is less bounce back and it will also achive better atomisation than it would with higher viscosity material so it is simply not all about the finish quality when it comes to RP guns ,for clear and HS materials they actulaly save more paint than HVLP when it comes to spraying the material they where designed to spray
heres an example of just how efective higher pressure is when it comes to transfer rates and finish quality ,the latest Devilbiss JGA Pro conventional HIGH PRESSURE guns which are concidered thier finest refinishing guns [sadly not legal in a bodyshop] actualy have transfer rates of 63% ,to be compliant requires only 65%
claimed transfer rates can be very deceptive and that is how HVLP is often mis sold or mis understood ,conventional spray equipment in the hands of an experianced sprayer is not actualy the vilian it has been made out to be and from a painters point of view i would rather sacrifice a little more paint to the booth than have to sand off even more material to correct orange peel
RP overall is a good compromise if you have to choose only one gun ,for basecoats then yes definatly HVLP all the way
BTW if you want guns that will imho outperform Sata at half the price look no further than Walcom guns my old FX HA was one of the finest clearcoating guns i have ever used ,i sold my sata RP within a week of buying the Walcom ;-),currently i am useing an Optima 900i by Bersch and Fratscher ,simply sureal and agian imho superior to any Sata model i have ver used
GTI ?? there are a few variants and set ups so which particular GTI are you buying ? the latest incarnation is the GTI PRO and now the new Prolite[similar sized to the CVi midiguns] which are available as a HVLP or TransTech ,if you intend to use it as a one gun for all aplications then the Transtech is the way to go,the latest 110+ aircap seems to be the way forward acording to the grapevine although its not a gun i use myself ,my preference when it comes to Devilbiss is the CVi or latter HD advance transtech [same gun same set ups different colour new nobs]
as for a breakdown of the materials on offer today then we could be here for months lol ,mostly you will confronted with high build primers ,maybe surfacers if you getting fussy ,one piece of advice though get yourself a dedicated primer gun and preferably not a cheapo HVLP gun ,in actual fact for high viscosity materials conventional spray equipment is best then reduced pressure guns ,if your in bodyshop conventional is not legal to use but if not then why not ,for primers go get yourself an Airgunza AZ3 HTE II 1.8 which imo is about the best deal out there at the moment for high quality fairly priced compliant spray gun either that or a devilbiss FLG5 ,they arent anywhere near the build quality of the Gunza though and the Gunza is usualy found cheaper ,the gunza with 1.3 set up is actualy a very good refinishing gun as well 😉
dont bother atempting to sandblast at home ,the equipment to do a proper job is expensive and requires massive amounts of air at very high pressures to be effective ,best bet farm the work out to a pro set up ,they dont charge much especialy if you get to know them ,last bike guard i had done cost me £10 and he did it whilst i waited ,another thing is the mess involved and blasting shot gets everywhere ,the advice here is dont try to do absolutly everything yourself as often your not saving any time or money anyway
hope this helps and im sure others will chime in
Paul
the supernova needs to be tweaked for speed ie cut the fan down or it is a slower gun, sata as always spray wide open out the box ,my preference was for the 1.2 RP although now im using an Optima 900i 1.4 which i do have to choke off to suite my pace
if you go for the supernova make sure you get the latest evolution model as the first ones had some quality issues ie nobs falling off when used with waterbourne solvent cleaners and some other issues
imho value for money out the box performance and low rebuild costs then Walcom guns beat the lot i love my walcom FX HA which is still available although superceded by the Genesi HTE version which is bit more service friendly than the older model ,just like Sata they have matched caps and tips hence not much tweaking required to match the fan to the fluid flow like most one cap fits all set upsPaul
sounds a bit arse about face to me lol,i always fill first then prime ,the trouble with filling over fresh potentialy non cured paint is that the paint be it primer or whatever is liable to shift or shrink under the filler which tends to not move ie your putting a very stable product over one that isnt so stable ,done the other way round the paint or primer can move and cure out evenly ,in the case of epoxy i use it wet on wet with a topcoat of high build 2K primer, as has been mentioned epoxy doesnt sand to well so laying 2K over it wet on wet saves a lot of headache
wet on wet being after the epoxy has dried out but before it has fully cured out so it will cross link ,i once made the mistake of laying my 2K primer too early and the epoxy would not cure underneath ,i then had to strip the whole job off
Paul
i stopped using superfine/grey scotchbrite for blends a good long time ago ,i have never had much faith in them in regards to physical adhesion ,personaly i sand everything with 400 DA or where i cant get in with a DA i use a Fein multitop oscilating sander fitted with a 77mm pad with an interface it can even sand under door handles and on the smallest of edges without breaking through ie total control 😉 ,for blends i use a clear foundation coat to fill the scratch this way i am 100% certain of adhesion with no fear of any scratch showing ,also as bonus i find clears lay better over a foundation coat than over sanded or scotched clear
In my experiance its the next poor bugger who finds out if the scotched area has failed or after a stonechip or scratch starts the delam process ,personaly i dont like seeing my jobs fail even months or years down the line so i sand them properly if i didnt care i would go into the SMART repair game 😉
Paul
[quote=”lebanontn” post=20850]I have come to the conclusion that i need to repaint the whole tailgate. What is the best and quickest way to remove the paint down to metal of the tailgate and also how can you tell if the surface is completely smooth for painting after removing paint.
Thanks[/quote]what made you come to that conclusion ,bare metaling a panel is an extreme course of action concidering you only have a paint chip to deal with
anyway if you are starting from scratch equipment wise then to be honest doing this yourself isnt going to be economiclay vaible
1 you will be buying your materials at retail prices
2 you lack the experiance required to do a decent job
3 you risk a poor colour match going edge to edge even if you do pull off a decent job of preping and spraying it which can lead to even further expence and headachespersonaly i would agrea with the recomendations allready given regards the repair process or send it in and get it done at a bodyshop
Paul