Ben Hart
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As mentioned lots of things can cause fisheyes. Are you using rags that could be contaminated rather than clean lint free wipes? If you are wearing coveralls that have been washed/dried with fabric softener this can sometimes cause fisheyes. Airlines or oil from the compressor (do you have a good filtration system)?
There are hundreds of possible causes.
What wax and grease remover are you using? Not all are created equally.
I don’t recognize the mixing toners…is that Autowave?
[b]Stone wrote:[/b]
[quote]:cheers very nice :cheers …. were the handles missing when it came in? :whistle:[/quote]Yeah…you shouldn’t leave ’em outside unlocked like that. People love to jack parts :rofl
I have used Cromax Pro and a little AWX and the PPG.
I personally do not like the AWX as it seems to have poor coverage and seems rather “watery” if that makes sense…also seems slower drying than the others. I found the key, as Doghousels mentioned, is to try and spray it dryer/lighter with more coats.
It says it may be re coated with any Nason topcoat, [b]”COUCHES DE FINITION:Toutes les couches de finition Nason.”[/b] and it says, [b]”Il peut être recouvert avec n’importe quel système de finition.”[/b] (may be recoated with all finishing systems).
So according to the French Tech-sheet it seems to say that it is ok to spray your paint right over top. The 422-23 sealer is only a 1k product anyway. I would personally shy away from that.
Personally I wouldn’t use either product. Instead I would use the DuPont 25XXs series of DTM Epoxy Primer Sealers. They can be applies direct to metal, give excellent adhesion/corrosion resistance and do not require a sealer. They lay down really nice so it makes a great foundation for your paint. If you want a quick easy 1 step product, this is it. I have used it for many years with great success and it works well with Nason products.
Good luck!
[b]ding wrote:[/b]
[quote]good advise from jayson posted on another site
“The trick with 3 stages is to make absolute certain your ground/foundation coat matches the car,look in the trunk,under the sill plate or under hood and make sure your ground coat matches first by doing a spray out.A let down panel is also great advice,and generally taking an extra panel to blend is also a must and I don’t have a problem getting paid by an insurance company either.If you are doing the fender I would do the hood and door at the very minimum.
This is how I have been doing tri stage blends for over 20 years and have been successful with hundreds of them.After you spray on 2 coats of ground/foundation coat apply a clear base or orientation coat to help the pearl blend easier to your maximum blend area.Now mix your mid-coat /effect coat(pearl or candy) and reduce for spraying.Now mix your ready to spray ground coat with your ready to spray pearl coat 1:1 and apply 1-2 light coats gradually fading out to make a more uniform blend of the ground/foundation coat.
Now take your mixed and ready to spray pearl/effect color and apply one coat to your maximum blend area(this is called a reverse blend or staggering your blend) and mark it on your masking paper with a pen or sharpie.Coat #2 goes just past the fender,coat # 3 goes to say the middle of the front door but not to your maximum blend area.You should now have a smooth undetectable blend.By doing a reverse blend and marking where you are on your masking paper you know where you are at,plus you will not have a build up of pearl/effect coat in one area that will show as a color difference.Now all you have to do is clear it and be done with it.
If you have never done a 3 stage blend and you have never painted before I would seek professional help or pay a good shop to do it.If you attempt it yourself give the base lots of flash time and now you see why it is necessary to take an extra panel to give yourself more room to blend the numerous coats.Good luck and I hope this helps you. ”
This is how i did my very first pearl blend. shop owner thought I panel painted it cause he couldnt find my blend on the door ;)[/quote]
That is definately a little different…I’ve always had great success with the method I was taught when I went to school which is the same as what DuPont, PPG, and SW preach (in regards to solvent).
I have had so/so success with blending the newer formulas that have the ground/mid together. obviously the nature of a tri-stage makes it ideal for blending.
That looks awesome.
Great job both of you!
I bet a custom woody wagon would look amazing with panels like that…
Well…..
When it comes to tri-stage colours I usually spray a let down panel first to ensure that both the ground coat and midcoat can provide a bendable match, and help me determine how many coats I need. The ground coat, obviously, needs to be sprayed to hiding. The # of midcoats will vary depending on the actual colour, gun pressure, distance, reduction and your spraying techniques. With tri stages it is very important to be very consistent or you will not match the colour well.
What you needed to do was your spray out card(s) (letdown panel)first so that while you were spraying you knew how many coats you needed (and what air pressure, fan setting etc) got you the closest match. When you started painting you needed to apply the ground coat until hiding and blend it out a little. Then apply the first mid coat over the ground coat and blend each subsequent coat out from there. If you have enough room you can usually blend a pretty bad colour out decently.
The use of 222S, midcoat adhesion promoter can help with the blend edge. I also find that if you use the bascoat blender 69301S in place of the basemaker it can also help with blending.
I would suggest letting the vehicle dry for few days, scuff it well and redo it. And of course, follow proper flash times, especially before clearing. There will be A LOT of solvent in there…
Good luck.
Most paint manufacturers sell a reasonably good quality product. For the most part I have always valued service first and foremost. Where I live, I would only use PPG or DuPont because of the great service from both the suppliers as well as great service from the manufacturer.
Of course price and product quality are important factors as well.
I’ve used the PPS and the SATA. They are both good however, I personally prefer the PPS. And yes they will work with whatever product you put in them.
I like that you can mix in them, spray with it, then store the leftovers if you so desire. And it is much nicer than cleaning out the paint cup every time…
I wouldn’t worry about the hardener in the base. I would consider the Nason primer the weak point of the system…not exactly the best for adhesion on plastic or flexability.
Nonetheless, it looks like a good job and I am sure it will last a good while.
[b]ding wrote:[/b]
just remember doright if you are getting $50hr to change a fender that the book pays 2.5 hours for and you do it in 1.5 hours you still get paid for that 2.5hours worth of work. book time is a lot easier to make in the body shop than the mechanical shop.
the estimate on the trailblazer i just fixed had 23.7 hours on it. I did the job in under 10hours
even though the estimate paid $50 hour I made over $118hr
really its simple. your making it complicated[/quote]You practically took the words out of my mouth. I work at a dealer…mechanical rates are about $50/hr MORE than the body shop. The mechanics cannot produce as much work (based on book time). Thus I am happy to make less on an hourly basis since I know I can usually do really well with the hours.
Insurance companies know that. That is why they pay less, but are generally ok with the times charged for repairs.
if it were me, I would strip the hood (with a chemical stripper, such as Tal-Strp) down to the bare metal. Quickly sand the hood with 180-320 with a DA sander. If there are no dents, then I would put it straight into the booth.
Then etch it or use DTM Epoxy primer, then your 2k urethane sealer…base/clear. All wet on wet.
[b]Underpaid Painter wrote:[/b]
[quote]Im using sherwin CC931 CC950 and HPC15. They will die on ya really bad if you dont have a good air movement and if you get on them a little early. The key is to let them flash and flash and flash. It sucks because it slows up production but if ya let it flash you will have good results. I have not had too many problems with the 15 min clear. It seems to hold a good gloss! From what I hear about AWX and VORTEX is that you have got to get all the water out before clear. It needs more air flow than the other waters out there.[/quote]Here in Calgary virtually all shops are using waterbourne paints and low VOC clears. I’ve personally found of the ones I’ve used that the Sherwin Williams AWX is by far the worst. I found the base a little finicky to spray and had a hrad time not mottling it. It also seemed to dry slower than others. Their clears didn’t flow well and loved to die off. I do think you can get a a very good finish, however, it takes time and a lot of skill.
As far as the PPG, the base coat seems pretty good. With adequate airflow it is possibly the fastest base I’ve sprayed (faster than the Cromax pro, but does require 1 or 2 more coats than it). The 700 clear is similar to the AWX clears, but a little better. They flow better and don’t tend to die off as much/as bad. Much more user friendly. If we could still buy it, I would definately prefer the 893/894 clears…but with a little care and attention the Envirobase 700 clears are pretty decent.
[b]Underpaid Painter wrote:[/b]
[quote]Ive been doing more and more work in the garage for people and was just wondering how you charge? I work at a dealer and we charge 30.00 for every hour of refinsh. thats our going rate for insurance and customer pay. I dont have a business, just stuff on the side. Im just not sure how I should charge for materials. I deffinatly want to make some money on them.I have thought about marking them up 25% but I never know how much Im going to use when I give them a quote. Any input would be great.[/quote]
Charging as most shops charge is a good bet. If you can figure your labour time you can determine an amount to charge for a job, as you mentioned. If your material cost is accurate (say the 30/refinish hour actually covers all materials plus mark up) than this is by far the best way to go with almost all jobs.
But it depends on what you are doing on the side. Small jobs, painting completes? When I would do a complete on the side, I would buy from the supplier so I can have an exact cost. Then as far as primers/sealers go, I would charge the customer for a full gallon (or qt cans, depending on the extent of the job)knowing to buy at least a little more than necessary. In the end I would keep extra materials for future smaller jobs. Then factor in the cost of other materials (paper, tape etc) and charge at cost or marked up whatever you want.
ITs really hard to say, since all jobs are different and require different amounts of materials.