John
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[b]ding wrote:[/b]
[quote]Recoating the tank after sanding with 600 produced a nice smooth finish. I like the way it layed out. also sanded and buffed a few nibs and the ridge from the srtipe. got to it about 20 min after spraying. I used 2500 and it buffed out nice with my mini polisher and a foam pad using presta light compound. didn’t seem to leave any swirls nor did it leave scratches when wiping the residue off like a lot of fresh paints do.[/quote]Cool! I love it when that happens. I like that you’re trying different things with the product and comparing your results. It’s nice for me, when talking to potential customers (or existing customers about a new product), to have knowledge of real world user experiences. Thank you.
[b]jimmo wrote:[/b]
[quote]A little while ago we had a S&W demo at our shop. We’ve since signed a contract with basf but anyhow on the topic of that primer i just wanted to mention a problem they had. They called it squeegee primer as it was applied with one. It sounded like a great idea but they had a problem during the demo. It came out watery and just didn’t work, it was one of those awkward moments where they tried to talk their way out of it and blame a bad batch.I’ve been meaning to get some in to try for myself, is this the same stuff? what kind of feedback do ya get on it? I don’t know if this is the same stuff, they never said anything about waiting 5 minutes….or maybe that was their problem?[/quote]
Yup… that would be it. There are two versions – NP75 which you mix on your own (with the 5 minute wait), and NP75C, which is the cartridge version.
Yeah… if they had a problem with the NP75C coming out of the cartridge too watery, that would sound like they had a bad batch, or perhaps something happened to that particular tube (such as frozen, then thawed or exposed to extreme high temp, or…) … definitely a bummer to have something like that happen during a demo.
What else did they show you, and how did you like it?
[b]ding wrote:[/b]
[quote]I was wet sanding it. It is better to dry sand this clear. also I was multitasking so I couldn’t get on it right away[/quote]I think most painters are multitasking, so, whenever we have a product with a narrow window, it concerns me a bit.
We have a very cool primer that you can roll on or apply with a spreader. I initially shied away from presenting it to anyone because you had to mix it, wait 5 minutes, then roll it or spread it. I figured most painters would likely come back after 15 and find out it was too late to use it. We subsequently came out with a two part cartridge version of the product where you just shoot as much as you need out of the gun, roll it or spread it, and you’re good to go. Now *that* I sell.
Another “window” product would be any of the scratch resistant clears. Man… if you’re going to buff or sand that stuff, you better do it sooner rather than later. Shoot it on Friday with the plan to buff and sand on Monday? Not gonna happen.
[b]ding wrote:[/b]
[quote]A little hard to sand for recoating. Let it sit for about 2 hrs then sanded. took a while to knock it down. doesn’t like dulling out with a grey scuff pad took some effort in the corners. got one part that will sit over the weekend and I’ll see how that sands after it sets up some more[/quote]I think you probably want to go the other way – sand it as soon as possible. When I tried it, sanded it after 15 minutes, it powdered up very nicely. In talking with the techs and people at the training center, they seem to like it best when they got on it within the first hour.
[b]ding wrote:[/b]
[quote]One question is has there been any issues with durability due to the extreme speed?[/quote]None that I know of at this point in time.
[b]ding wrote:[/b]
[quote]this is all i could find on their site. page 21. its the dimension base not the ultra 7000
http://www.sherwin-automotive.com/media/the_finish.pdf%5B/quote%5DI see. We’ve had Dimension available as either 5.0 or 3.5 as a single stage, but only 5.0 as a basecoat. The DM631 allows me to mix it as a 3.5 basecoat now.
OK… so here’s the deal…
There’s Ultra 7000 – our top line for refinishers. a lot of the cost of that product come from the R&D on color match, alternates and documentation.The next step down from Ultra 7000 is Dimension. It is sold as “For complete refinishing only” – because, while there is color match info for *most* OEM paint codes, there are no alternate choices. Additionally, there are some OEM tri-stage codes that just don’t come up in Dimension at all.
That isn’t to say there aren’t shops who don’t use Dimension as their paint line. They deal with the color match on any repairs. When they get a code that isn’t available, they just call me and have me mix them up a pint or a quart of Whatever they need.
Dimension is a pretty good product. The biggest differences between Dimension & Ultra 7000 are the color documentation, and Dimension doesn’t offer the same warranty options (whereas Ultra 7000 has a lifetime warranty – when applied by a certified painter).
Another difference is Dimension is lower in solids, thus, coverage may take another coat or two on some colors.
In the end, as with many things, the choice to use Dimension as your main paint line has to be made by doing a cost vs. benefits analysis.
Many Macco shops use a version of Dimension single stage on their complete jobs, and also have an Ultra 7000 system for doing repair work.
In my opinion, a shop doing a side by side comparison of AWX vs. Dimension, would choose AWX hands down.
[b]bondomerchant wrote:[/b]
[quote]hehehehe fuck waterbourne:P 😛 😛 😛 ive heard of it to an am ashamed that nighthawk doesnt know about this as ive even been following this one hey hows the alt decks coming on our waterborne anyway???[/quote]The color deck for the AWX line is out. It’s awesome compared to the colorworks box. It’s chromatic, rather than by car line, similar to some of our competitors boxes. You just go to the color you’re looking for – all the blues are here, reds, silver, etc.
If you look on page 20 at Jimmo’s link above, you can see a picture of it.
I’m always selling… I’ll run down a guy in a body shop jacket at the grocery store, bust out my Planet Color chip book for someone I meet at a wedding… if I see someone driving down the street in a primered car, I’ll flag them down and ask them if they need some paint!
Yeah… putting the clear on wetter doesn’t seem to matter as much as giving it time to flow out (and knowing how wet you should put it on so that it *only* flows out and doesn’t run or sag). Two medium wet coats, a couple of mils of thickness, you’re good to go.
Cool that you’re playing with it and testing the limits. I like to do stuff like that.
Chat box? … I’m not really much of a chat type of guy. I do my posting here and on a couple of other forums, post to a couple of newsgroups, then spend the rest of the evening killing my fellow Americans playing Americas Army (where I also don’t chat much)
Not really. Here in Chicago, we don’t have to worry about those issues yet, so, I pay little attention.
I am peripherally aware, in North America, we manufacture a number of compliant products which are sold primarily in the California and Canadian markets.
Do you recall where you saw it?
I’d be happy to talk to whomever I need to find whatever it is you’d like to know.
It is my belief, and again, I don’t pay full attention to these things at this point, all our Canadian customers are being converted over to the AWX (waterborne) line.
Ding… just to clarify, you’re talking about US reducers (US2, US3, US4)… UH is the hardener (UH80)
As for using US5 or US6 to slow down the HPC15 a bit more – for right now I’m going to say don’t even think about going there. US5 & 6 are very different from US1 through 4. US5 & 6 contain some type of acid (thus they come in lined cans) which could cause issues if used in the wrong products.
I would say that if you feel you want to slow down the HPC15 more than you get with US4 – you’re probably using the wrong product and might be better off going with CC931.
With CC931, you’re dust free in 20-30 minutes air dry (5 minutes bake or infra-red)
http://www.sherwin-automotive.com/media/pds/English/6149.pdfHowever, in reading your comments, I see you’re not so much looking to slow it down, as you are looking to spray it with less texture. Without being there, and not knowing quite a few things, my first guess would be you might get the results you’re looking for by adjusting your gun setup.
It’s possible you just need to get the clear atomized a bit more. I notice the PDS doesn’t clarify that the 10 PSI HVLP recommendation is *at the cap* (we’ve been bitching to the proper authorities to have this changed and clarified). Depending on your gun, that means you need something like 25-30 PSI going *into* the gun. If you use an Iwata, that would be a bit lower 18-24 PSI.
You’ve got that right Stone. There are a lot of players involved in this game, and we each rely on all the others doing their job well in order to survive. At the same time, it’s a relatively small world – you keep running into the same people day after day, year after year. Your reputation and integrity mean more than anything. Selling either to make a few dollars now can only result in long term damage.
3M’s business model is that they have to create new products on a certain time schedule (don’t recall what it is). They also retire products on a similar schedule, so as to avoid having a whole bunch of different versions of the same product. It works for them as a business, but makes things more confusing for the end user.
3M recently released a new 1500 grit Trizact disc.
They also have a new compound (3M06085) which will be replacing the Extra Cut compound (3M06060).
Both are available, along with a number of other products, in a “Trial Kit”. Check with your local jobber or 3M rep.
They also put together a cool little headlight Lens Restoration Kit. Nothing amazing or new, just everything you need (including a 3″ pneumatic buffer) in a neat little carry bag. Part # is 3M02516
From my point of view…
In my experience, genuine warranty claims (i.e. product failure) are very rare. One of the first questions I ask a shop when they tell me they have a potential warranty claim is “How many did you get back?”
…. if the answer is “Just this one so far.”, that tells me it’s not likely a product failure. If you have a gallon of bad clear, it’s going to fail on every car you use it on. If you have a single failure, it’s pretty sure to be a prep, mixing or application error. I always check it out & send samples to the lab for testing, but I have never (yet) had a single incidence failure come back as a product failure.
However, any of you may have experienced this, some times I might do something for the shop, in the interest of good customer relations. Maybe I can’t cut a check for the claim, but, maybe I can toss them a bone somehow – a free gallon of clear or something. Depends on the shop.
But… as soon as I get the results back from the lab indicating another product was used in the process – all bets are off. Everything ends right there. I haven’t ever actually had this happen.
So, my having said all that, you might wonder or ask if I wouldn’t be happy any time I can get someone to use my products. My honest answer would be that I wish for you and your shop to be successful and thrive. That presents my best opportunity to sell my products, right? If you lose out on a warranty claim because you use some of my product… how does that make me look in your eyes? Wouldn’t you be saying “That damn SW rep talked me into this, now I got screwed!”?
I can assure you, I’d rather get no sale at all, than to have something happen that risks you having a negative opinion of me or SW.
In that regard, I think on warranty work, your safest bet is to stick with a single paint line, from primer to clear. However, only you can truly assess the amount of risk you are willing to take. Do the benefits outweigh the costs (or risk)?
If the result is that you have one or two comebacks per year, that probably aren’t product failures anyway, then, it’s probably worth it for whatever reasons you are choosing those products in the first place.
In the case where there were 50 cars that needed to be re-done… OUCH! I don’t even want to think about it.
Locally, I have shops that mix different products all the time. I have some shops that use their “top line” system on insurance work, and use different products (i.e. lower cost) on the customer pay jobs.
I also am very involved with custom cars and car shows. In that arena, I can tell you it is *extremely* rare for me to find a car with a single paint line from primer to clear.
In the end… is it an issue to be concerned with? Probably not, most of the time. Can it be a huge risk? Definitely. Is it worth that risk? Only you can answer that.
Now… my salesman answer would be …. if you like my clear so much, let’s go ahead an replace that system in your shop with one of my systems. You’ll like our base and primers just as well, and you won’t have to worry about voiding your warranty. 😛
You almost have to think we’re getting about to the limit on speeding things up.
Maybe the next place to go from here is to just cover the entire car in vinyl – pick your color, cover each panel & trim. Zero dry time.
Of course, we’ll all be moving to waterborne paints soon enough. The dry times are a bit slower than solvent based products right now. That will give everyone the chance to start working on speeding things up all over again.!